In response to Daniel’s comment to my last post:
“Our destiny cannot be denied.”
Daniel said, “We’re saved by faith in Jesus, not by whether we’re not resisting the flow of God’s ordained happenings. Peter was saved by faith in Jesus but still in his ignorance did things to hinder Him. Be careful how you apply your understanding of this to people in churches. …The only way we can be without spot or wrinkle is to have God reckon to us His own righteousness because we believe in His Son (2 Cor. 5:21). Otherwise, we won’t be without spot or wrinkle (perfect) until we’re changed when we die or when He comes. Paul talks about how our fallen nature wars with the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:16). John talks about the remedy for sins we become aware of (1 Jn 1:9). To suggest we must die to Self enough to qualify for Heaven negates the necessity for the Blood Covering.”
Thank you for caring enough to comment.
I know you have not read my book Exit Strategy. In the book I speak scripturally to most of the points you make demonstrating and why our thinking must change.
Your first point. “We’re saved by faith in Jesus”
We are saved by grace through faith. Believing that what Jesus did for us was real, our belief, our faith, is to compel us to follow in His Ways as Lord of our lives. Grace in its self is a royal commodity.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.”
As my book points out, “Grace” is a two sided coin. Grace is received but more importantly grace must be granted. “It is better to give than receive?” We run into trouble if we do not grant grace. Withholding grace is a form of unforgiveness and we know if we do not forgive, we are not forgiven. (See the Lord’s prayer in Matthew 6:9 and especially verse 14 following.) If we are not forgiven, or become not forgiven because WE did not forgive after WE were forgiven, heaven is lost to us, even though we were once reconciled to God. Remember the parable of slave forgiven much who would not forgive little, we like him will be imprisoned according to Jesus, by God the Father. Matthew 18:35. Read it, our continued and final security is in obedience to HIS ways.
About grace and our management of it, Hebrews 12:14-15 (NASB) says,
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;…”
Daniel, according to that verse we are to pursue peace with all men, if we ever expect to see the Lord. If in our pursuit of peace we fail to forgive, if we let anyone fall short, fail to grant them grace (grace God gave us to begin with, like the king gave the slave) a root of bitterness springs up in us, causing trouble (for our selves) and defiling many. We become a stumbling block to ourselves and others!
The Word says in Matthew 13:41-42 (NASB)
41 “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Daniel, unforgiveness is also lawlessness. An unforgiving heart will not be smuggled into heaven. Daniel we have responsibilities in this relationship with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Those responsibilities often involve others. Eternity is a long time for “others” to exist in peace and harmony. This ability is what Jesus came to teach us. Will we embrace it over our will? These are not works. Responsibilities call for obedience.
John 3:36 (NASB)
36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 (NKJV)
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Your KJV uses the word “believe” twice in this verse when in fact it is two different words in the Greek. Check your Strong’s Concordance. The first “believe,” means to believe to the point of entrusting yourself, (to the Son’s Lordship). The second word “believe” is where we get our word apathetic. It means to disobey or be disobedient. Our obedience is paramount to our maintaining the everlasting life we were given freely when we were reconciled to God. This is a critical element we have missed.
We are to become gracefruit trees. The seed of grace was planted in our hearts at reconciliation. Will it grow and render us fruitful, a qualification for the kingdom. Grace saved us, our granting grace might save others! NOT granting grace, holding unforgiveness, is the opposite of reconciliation, a ministry we have (as followers) all been given.
As we follow His instructions, keep His commandments, fulfill our responsibilities regarding mercy, grace, compassion and love, we maintain or protect our future salvation. Our maintenance proves the content of our heart and our readiness to live in the Lord’s kingdom.
By the way, Peter did not become the Peter we know until Jesus walked through that door as his resurrected Lord. Peter nor anyone else is actually changed or finally saved until we die, shedding this flesh and blood. Jesus said flesh and blood would not inherit eternal life! By faith we follow and implement the teachings of Christ. THIS trains us to endure in our love toward all others and scripturally assures us of preparation to finish the race, especially if we are challenged over our faith. It is this enduring love Christ-likeness we pursue, and as Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 “and this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations and then the end will come.”
I am not saying you are all wrong Daniel. I am saying Jesus taught us in the use of grace, compassion, love, mercy, self sacrifice and we are expected to become masters in their use. Do we not know this? Do we have no expectation of participation in this process, this “working out” of our salvation?
Remember the slave with one talent? He was cast out even though he had a legitimate chance to please the Master. Remember the guest at the wedding that did not have on wedding clothes? He was cast out, even though he had been given a right to be there initially. He did not take advantage of his opportunity by preparing. Remember the 5 virgins that did not bring enough oil? In our new reconciled life, we have a similar responsibility to prepare ourselves. We must bring a return, we must bare fruit, we must be ready, without spot or blemish, holy and blameless. Have you ever known of a bride that was not ready in advance of her groom arriving? We have been given everything pertaining to life and Godliness.
2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (NASB) The verse you spoke of.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” “So that we might…” Jesus did not guarantee our salvation. He made it possible! As the Word say, ‘we have been given all things pertaining to life and Godliness. (2 Peter 1:3)
“For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. It is up to us to implement them and glorify God in the process as His children.” 2 Peter 1:4 (NASB)
Daniel, Paul said this also. Romans 5:10 (NASB)
”10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”
This says the same basic thing as John 3:36. There is a two-fold aspect to our future salvation. There is reconciliation as Paul says, and by as John says, by “believing.” Then there is also salvation (being saved) as Paul says by the life of Jesus, meaning by our implementing everything the Father taught us through Jesus and by learning from the examples Jesus showed us in life and on the cross. John agrees with Paul by saying our obedience to all that teaching means eternal life. Disobeying means no eternal life, but a terrible wrath rests upon us.
Daniel said, “Otherwise, we won’t be without spot or wrinkle (perfect) until we’re changed when we die or when He comes “
Daniel this again needs examination. Your insertion of the word “perfect” is understandable and I believe it is clear what you are implying. And to support your point I quote:
Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Yes it is a continuous task in us.
Colossians 1:28-29 (KJV)
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Like the word confusion with “believe”, the word “perfect” usually means mature or complete. We need to note that, because of the extreme implication in our vernacular of the word “perfect.”
Daniel said, “To suggest we must die to Self enough to qualify for Heaven negates the necessity for the Blood Covering.”
Matthew 16:24-25 (NASB)
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”
We die with Him when we accept His death covering. We must continue to suppress the flesh, in this life, dying to self, to maintain the perfection God accomplished in our being born again. You realize, we are perfect in that born again moment. As to negating the necessity of the blood covering, as you know, we cannot even begin without the blood covering. The reconciliation we receive is however applied regarding our previous sins. In reconciliation we are made new, cleansed, washed, born again, like new people with a new chance. Like a new car, we must keep our soul self clean because we sin in word thought and deed daily. No where does God exempt us from that responsibility.
Romans 3:23-26 (NKJV)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”
So we go forward from reconciliation in and with the power of grace, compassion, mercy, love all of which help us walk in the Law of the Spirit of Life (Romans 8:2) and as we apply these facets of God to others, they are applied back to us from Him, “give and it shall be given unto you!” “If you forgive the sins of any man, your sins are forgiven.!” If I am forgiven, I am like I was initially at my reconciliation to our Father. Perfect! I am washing my robe by that which came in the blood; by mercy, compassion, by love and selflessness, by forgiveness. Because I must walk out this life after being reconciled, I am therefore “saved” by His life. I get new life by His death! I must maintain it. I can as I live as He lives in me, as I obediently prove He is living in me.
Daniel, take your pick of these two versions of verse. Both specify OUR “doing” or “washing.”
Revelation 22:14 (KJV)
”14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”
Revelation 22:14 (NASB)
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Please read some of my other postings. There is more. Read Exit Strategy $2.99.
Bless you Daniel.
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